BAM For All: Kellie Wagner

BAM For All is a new interview series featuring outstanding leaders in HR and Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI), many of whom are within the tech world.

BAM has made a long-term commitment to DEI trainings, education, and implementations and we are pushing to make the same standard across the PR world as well as Silicon Valley.

In this interview, BAM's Head of People, Jill Veglahn, sits down (via Zoom) with Kellie Wagner, the CEO/founder of DEI Collective to discuss all things DEI. Jill talks to Kellie about what her favorite quote is, what her superpower is, and what she recommends to folx looking to initiate a DEI program within their workspace. Kellie also shares one thing she’d love to never be asked again and what she wishes more people would ask her.

Listen to the entire conversation below:

Q: What’s your favorite quote?

Kellie Wagner:

Oooh. It’s kind of a long one, but I love it. It’s by this Spanish philosopher George Santayana, and he’s pretty famous for saying, “Those who ignore the past will be condemned to repeat it.” So, that’s kind of how I found out about him. But the quote is, “The world is not respectable. It is mortal, tormented, confused, deluded forever. But it’s shot through with beauty, with laughter, with glints of courage and happiness, and in those the spirit blooms timidly and struggles to light amid the thorns.” And it’s so beautiful, and it’s exactly what keeps me going in my work is to remember that even in the darkest moments, there are kind people who want to do the right thing, and who will show up.

Q: What does inclusion mean?

Kellie Wagner:

We talk a lot about inclusion really being the idea of being seen, feeling understood, feeling valued. And I think what’s important to me around inclusion, is that that looks so different to every single person. I kind of equate it to the five love languages. Right? That the ways in which we want to be appreciated look different for each of us, and I would say the same for inclusion.

Q: What does equity mean to you?

Kellie Wagner:

Equity to me, and this is, I feel one of the areas that there’s a lot of misconceptions around in this work. To me, equity is that everyone has what they need to be able to thrive. And that can look different for different people.

My favorite example of this was talking to a kindergarten teacher who was trying to teach the concept of equity to little five year old humans, and I was like, “How do you even describe equity to small children?” And she said, “We teach kids that what’s fair is that everyone gets the same thing, but actually what Jason needs might look very different than what Karen, and what Ashley needs. So, if Jason needs to stand because that’s how he learns better, like, we’re gonna let him stand. Right? And if someone needs more space to sit or to concentrate, that’s what we’re gonna give them so that they can do really well in school.”

And I just really loved that example because I think by the time we become adults, our understanding of fairness is we all get the same thing, but that leads to really different outcomes for different people. And what you get is determined by often people who are different than you. So, if what you get is determined by someone who doesn’t understand your needs then you’re automatically at a disadvantage.

“Equity is that everyone has what they need to be able to thrive. And that can look different for different people.”

Q: What is one question you wish people would never ask you again?

Kellie Wagner:

That’s such a good question. Oh my gosh. 2020 is the year of, “Can I pick your brain?” I could definitely stand to not hear that again. And it sounds so ungracious. I think for me, I would rather people just ask the question that’s on their mind than “Can I pick your brain?” Because I’m like, what am I getting myself into? So, yeah. I could let that one go in 2020.

Q: And what is one question you wish everyone would ask?

Kellie Wagner:

Ooh. I would love for people to ask me what are the things that shape the way you view and experience the world? And I think that’s a question we could all ask one another. I’ve been thinking a lot about just this social media generation, how it’s one of the loneliest and most disconnected. And how we don’t take a ton of time to really understand what makes people tick, and what people’s motivations are, and fears. And so, just asking that question to someone, what shaped you? I love learning about people’s backgrounds and upbringings, and I want to hear all about people’s family lives. But you just learn so much, and it’s really meaningful for building connection.

Q: How did you get into the DEI space?

Kellie Wagner:

Yeah. I think the nutshell version, like so many other founders, I was motivated to solve a problem that I was experiencing. And I was a chronic job hopper. I would get to companies, and I would feel like I just don’t belong here. I don’t see people like me in leadership. I don’t really feel like I can be my authentic self, and I didn’t have language for that. Right? I didn’t even know that this was even a space that I could be in. And so, I kind of hobbled along, and I tried lots of different industries. And I realized this was a universal experience, it wasn’t unique to any particular industry, and also that I wasn’t the only one really having those feelings. 

And so, I would say Collective for me, it’s very much tied into the Black Lives Matter movement in ways that I probably wouldn’t have realized in the past. But I think the awakening for me was working at an organization, and being one of two Black women out of 300+ employees, and feeling so alone in those days. Much like, we’ve just experienced with Breanna Taylor, having a verdict come in, and feeling like, "wow, people don’t care" and feeling really alone in that experience. And I just didn’t want anyone else to feel that way. And I still don’t.

“I think the awakening for me was working at an organization, and being one of two Black women out of 300+ employees and feeling so alone in those days. And I just didn’t want anyone else to feel that way. And I still don’t.”

Q: What is your superpower?

Kellie Wagner:

Oh. I think I can get along with pretty much anyone. Sometimes I think it works against me. Particularly on dates. The other person is like, “I had such a great time.” And I’m like, “Really? I had a terrible time,” but I guess I was — yeah. I could talk to a brick. And I think that helps me in this work. It’s just like, I can find something in common with anyone. Truly.

Q: What is one thing you would recommend for folks who are on a shoestring budget? How can they just get started with DEI if they can’t afford to hire Collective or other organizations doing what you do?

Kellie Wagner:

Yeah. That’s a great question. I think there are so many things that you can do for free that can be really powerful. The first one is, get really clear on your vision for DEI at your organization. Like, what kind of culture you want to create, how do you want to value people and make sure that you’re creating space for lots of different types of people. And I think it’s a step that people skip, but it can be really, really clarifying, and validating, and grounding for your employees to feel like they have that clarity that their voice has been heard in that. So, bringing together people to really get clear on that is one amazing thing you can do.

The other thing is, if you have an HR team, really help invest in resources or support for them in making sure that they’re really tight on the people processes. Right? I think a lot of times we miss the fact that so much of DEI work is just around creating clarity in systems, in processes, and putting structure in place that creates greater objectivity so that people do have a chance regardless of what their background is like.

And I would also say, think about how you can leverage the people on your team — not just people from marginalized backgrounds, but all your people, and get them galvanized to want to support in this work. And honestly, talking about multiplying effect, right? It’s how can you use your budget to empower and recognize the grassroots efforts of your employees, so that they are motivated to continue to help drive this work forward because they can be a really great asset as long as they feel valued and seen for that work.

And there’s one really great free resource that I always love to call out for those who are on a budget. Project Include is an amazing free resource online that has so many step-by-step guides on how to get started across so many different areas. So, use what’s out there. There’s lots of great resources there.